barelvi beliefs

[sajjad]

asalamualaykum,
i would like to know if anyone is familier with the barelvi beliefs with regards to what they say about the prophet saw being,
alimulghaib,
hazirnazir,
noor bashar,
mukhtal kul.
i know that they call people who question these beliefs wahabi and they accuse the same people of not having love for our beloved prophet may the peace and blessings of Allah swt be upon him.
i would welcome any brothers with knowledge on the matter to coment and also any barelvis who can maybe clarify there standpoint on the above issues.

[Brother Andrew]

As-Salamu Alaykum

the barelvi belief meaning the belief of Imam Raza Khan is:

1. that the Prophet was bestowed knowledge of the unseen by Allah swt

but the important point to note here is that Allahs knowldge is infinite and has no bounds whereas Prophet Muhammads knowledge we can only speculate and it does have limits but we have no roght to say what that limit is.

There are many ahadith where Prophet Muhammad foreseen events in which Allah willed him to do so and barelvis believe that Allah bestowed this knowldege and Muhammad could have never attained it by himself.

We have to remember that Allah bestows upon His servants as He wills and whatever he gives is His choice His dominion.

2. Again Barelvis believe that Muhammad can see you and hear you from where you are standing right now and if Allah has given him that ability to do so then that is again Allahs choice.

There is Hadith that the Prophet sees your deeds every friday and asks forgiveness for you but again i feel thers is alot of speculation on this issue.

However we can not accuse those who believe that Muhammad can see or hear you where you are of shirk due to the fact they believe that Allah bestowed this ability and Muhammad is totally dependant upon Allah swt.

3. The Issue of Muhammad's light is dealt with very accademically in Ash Shifa, Barelvis believe that Muhammad is a man (bashr) and a light from Allah and they present Quranic evidence and views of the Salaf corcerning this which is 100% authentic.

4. whats is mukhtal kul.? i cant answer this

if you would like to open sepereate threads on this issue you may do so and i will try to give more in depth answers insha'Allah given the oppurtunity.

I find that with a lot of barelvis they have extreme attitudes due to ignorance and lack of knowledge and they call anybody who they dont like a wahabi.

Hard facts and evidence are needed both sides of the fence and good reasoning , however many of barelvis lack this ability but those with knowledge from amongst them have presented a number of hard facts.

theres a lot of people claiming to love the Prophet but when i see people kissing the thumbs and not following the sunnah questions arrises in my heart but yet the best arguement is against myself ...do i love the Prophet as i should?

Imam Raza Khan has a beautiful belief but yet i wouldnt class myself a follower nor opposer of his.

Wasalams

[sajjad]

thanks for that brother Andrew,
i wanted to know as some of what they say sounds like its unique to them.
also things like kissing the thumbs etc there is no basis for this in sharia but im sure they can come up with something to justifie it.
there are some other things aswell like certain practices people do in the indian subcontinent that seem to be endorsed by the barelvis.
i personally refer to deobandi ulema for knowledge as they seem to produce solid evidence for anything they say and keep away from doubtfull and obscure matters.
do you know any mureeds of shaykh nuh keller at all
as iwould be very interested to know his opinion on the matter.(i know hes got quite alot of mureeds here in the uk)anyway thanks again for your feedback jazarkAllah khair asalamualaykum

[Brother Andrew]

As-Salamu Alaykum

The Aqeed that Imam Brelvi had is not new and does stem from the Orthodox forfathers and is confirmed by Scholars amongst the Deoband as well.

In regards to the kissing of the thumbs, its permissable but the Hadith they take from is weak but beacause a Hadith is weak it does not mean it is fabricated, therefore calling it bida kufr or shirk as some do is not good.

It is a very risky matter for one to be going up to a grave and asking for help from the person inside of the grave and this is classed as a doubtful matter, because the following can arrise:

Shirk: by believing that this person in the grave is independant of Allah posessing his own power by believing this this action becomes shirk, however some brelvis has simply stated that they do not believe they are independant of Allah but is a matter of whether the dead can hear in the grave and whether they can help from the spiritual world only by Allah's permission.

Still this is a doubtful matter and from personal opnion i dont seek help from the saints due to the saying of Muhammad which is found in Imam Nawawis 40 Hadith , the 19th Hadith in which our Beloved Prophet says:

When you ask then ask from Allah, when you seek help seek help from Allah.

I find that alot of people are in ignorance and instead of going to the Quran and Sunnah and asking Allah for guidance and doing sincere research to help them with their problems they run to the nearest peersaab and throw themselves at their feet.

I dont class the matter as shirk but it can be depending upon their believe of the one they seek help from.

it is commendable to avoid the doubtful but we must also avoid condeming such doubtful matters because the tide can wash on either shore.

i have looked at the brelvi aqeed and think it is highly misrepersented by some, it needs to be studyed with an careful eye and close analyse along with the Quran and the Sunnah in an Orthodox method.

As for the view of Shaikh Nuh Ha Meem i will re-research his posistion on tawussal and get back to you with it.

Wasalams

if you wish to disscuss in depth any issues open a new thread and give a title to that topic like ' the issue of tawussal' for example and then insha'allah we will disscuss it in depth.

Wasalams

also a very good site that has dealt with all these type of issues is www.htspub.com ...if you look in the forum all of these type of topics has been dealt with in a very academic fashion.

[Brother Andrew]

Knowledge of the ghayb is being discussed here and only here! :

brotherandrew.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=fiqh&action=display&thread=1115752889

[Dawud]

salaams to all,

with regards to the beloved prophet rasoolullah (saws) being able to see us or even hear us is very interesting.... there are a few verses in the quran dealing with this issue... i wud jus like to present a few ayats from the glorious quran....

1. surah Al-Ahzab verse.45:
O Prophet! surely We have sent you as a witness, and as a bearer of good news and as a warner,

2.surah al baqarah v143

And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah

from these 2 quranic verses it clearly indicates that muhammad (saws) is a witness over the ummah... now it wud be illogical to say that he is not aware of us or not present with us (his ummah) because to be a witness u have to be present at the time of giving any account. so u cannot give evidence unless u were present at the scene of crime i.e. (murder,theft,rape etc....) so being a witness it is compulsory for someone to be actually present at the time of whatever they are being called for.

now we all understand the fact that whereever we go the shaytaan is always on our case, as he is our swarn enemy....stated in many places in the quran..... for example we belive that muhammad (saws's) knowledge,faith,piety and most importantly STATUS in the eyes of Allah is a million ,billion or trillion and infinate times better than the shaytaan himself(LA)? Allah has promised shaytaan(LA) hellfire and those who follow him, wheereas he has promised muhammad (saws) a place of security and closeness to Allah swt as stated in surah Al-israa verse 79: [Yusufali 17:79] And pray in the small watches of the morning: (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee: soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory!.....this is all logical....

so the quran says in surah Al-A'raaf verse 27 :

O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.

so if u can understand that shaytaan can see you wen u can see him not then how is it today people refuse to understand the fact that rasoolullah (saws) is far more greater and superior than shaytaan (iblees LA) and he (saws) has been bestowed nothing but mercy from his lord...infact rasoolullah(saws) is the mercy from Allah to the entire creation surah al-ambiya v.107.....Allah is always with rasoolullah (saws)...Allah has not abandoned rasoolullah (saws) as mentioned in surah ad-duha.... Allah has made the coming hour of rasoolullah(saws) much better then the previous hour.... so how can you belive that rasoolullah (saws) is NOT present with us when SHAYTAAN is and is watching us.... there is no competition or comparison between muahammad e arabi (saws)and iblees (LA) ....

as quran says clearly surah tawbah verse 128 :

Certainly a Messenger has come to you from among yourselves; grievous to him is your falling into distress, excessively solicitous respecting you; to the believers (he is) most kind and merciful.

now some may argue that this verse was only ment for the believers at that time! that can be the case but two points to rememember 1.the noble quran is meant for not only the believers at the time of rasoolullah (saws) but infact for all the genarations to come till judgement day. 2.the mercy of Allah does not die out or stop at one place, infact it goes on. as we already know that rasoolullah (saws) is a mercy for the entire creation, so logically his messege till this day is alive and will always remain alive. And rasoolullah (saws)is also alive Alhamdulillah as he is still "wamaa arsal naaka illa rahmatalil A'alameen" (a mercy to all the worlds). HE (SAWS) feels for you, he cares for you, how can anyone be merciful and compassionate towards someone if they are not presnt? how can anyone feel the pain of the other if he dosnt see wat misery or pain has befalled him? naoothubillah min zalik as some would say that rasoolullah(saws) is dead Astaghfirullah...how can that be if rasoolullah (saws) understands ur problems and feels ur pain and sorrow???..... tell me honestly? can a precious gem, a light from Allah, the messenger of Allah be dead in jannah?i i do agree to the fact that every soul has to taste death! but its illogical to say that if a person tastes death he is gone from the face of the universe?! tasting death literally means to TASTE death....its only tasting death not dying completely desolving into the midst of the air and never to be seen, known or heard of again!.... this is a question to ask yourself that wen you enter masjidal nabawi...inshallah on top of the roza mubarak (the blessed resting place of rasoolullah (saws) ) there is written a hadith of the beloved (saws) that from a certain point to a certain point it is the jannah that the beloved prophet (saws) resides in...subhanallah..... its all very logical.....

and as for rasoolullah being a light (nur) its very simple.... surah Al-Ahzab verse 46

And as one inviting to Allah by His permission, and as a light-giving torch.

surah An-nissaa verse 174:

O people! surely there has come to you manifest proof from your Lord and We have sent to you clear light.

Surah Al-Maa'idah verse 15

O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;

from the ayaats especially the last one in surah maa'idah it clearly indicates that a book has come as well as a light from Allah... now in the arabic grammer the letter *wow* comes between nur and kitaab...which clearly brings in a difference to the kitaab and nur...that the kitaab and noor are not in this verse as one.....because of the *wow* separating the two.... once again anybody with a bit of logic could understand....

so im sure inshallah this covers some of the points in brief regarding the prophet (saws) as a noor or bashar, haazir or naazir etc....

my final say for this topic is a quote from the quran from surah yusuf ch12. verse 31:

When she heard of their malicious talk, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them: she gave each of them a knife: and she said (to Joseph), "Come out before them." When they saw him, they did extol him, and (in their amazement) cut their hands: they said, "Allah preserve us! no mortal is this! this is none other than a noble angel!"

from this you can understand that the prophet yusuf(as) was so beautiful that the women cut their hands on seeing his perfection to what Allah had created.... and at the end they say he is not a man but a noble angel! so imagine how beautiful rasoolullah (saws) is whose face still till this day outshines the moon on the 14th night, subhanallah and whose smile is more radiant than the sun Allah hu akbar.... im sure if you see rasoolullah (saws) inshallah when Allah and his messenger (saws) wills even you people out there will say without a doubt that rasoolullah is NOT A MAN LIKE US "MA HAAZA BASHARAN IN HAZA ILLA MALAKUN KARIM" and you will say but rasoolullah (saws) is a noble angel.... the sultan of all the prophets(may peace be on them all) how can anyone compare him to say that he was a bashar like ME OR LIKE ANY OF US MEN astaghfirullah.... but he was the messenger of Allah and i am not even worthy of being the dust or earth on the blessed sole's of rasoolullah (saws)....

May Allah guide us all to the path of Muhammad (saws) ameen... and may Allah raise us in his(saws) company on the yowmal qiyaam ameen....

asalaamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh

[Brother Andrew]

As-Salamu alaykum

Just to let people know that i have denounced the brelvi belief of asking from saints in the grave, it is deviation which could result in major shirk, we have Allah, Allahs Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) never taught to ask from saints nor did the Sahaba, and it can not be justified, it stems from hindu culture and it must be avoided.

Wasalams

[laila]

www.nooremadinah.net/YaMohammad/YaMohammad.html

Asalamu alaikum

could u please read up on the articles on this link please. I hope they are useful for you. I know links can be annoying but I'd rather send a link incase i say summit wrong because i aint knowledgeable at all. Anyway, I am happy to be on this discussion forum.

Another thing which I would like to say is that we did not term ourselves the Braelvis, rather that other people who do not agree with what we "practice" have termed us as braelvis, and we have accepted it.

Remember, that certain practices done by people may be exaggerated, I am not saying they aren't but this does not make the practice wrong, rather its the people who make the practice seem its wrong.

Let me give you an example, like how you are saying with the grave worshipping and people do certain practices etc. I am not saying it is right or wrong but it is only some people who do not know and are ignorant and some who bend down and touch the grave with their heads. Actually, this was not a good example to give, I have probably just confused you even more.

Another example (a better one!) you know if a girl was wearing a hijaab but she did something which was out of the ordinary (not-islamic), it would not make the hijaab wrong but the persons mistake, wouldn't it?

It shouldn't be the practice in question but whether the people who practice certain things know exactly how things should be done. There is alot of unawareness. It is where I used to be too, and I think I still am! But we shouldn't start claiming this is shirk or this is bidah, who are we to say that? some start using these terms as soon as they learn some Hadiths off by heart and read a few books but they don't understand arabic!.

anyway i'll finish it off here i think.

ws

[Brother Andrew]

As-salamu alakum dear sister

I am very well aware of the link there, thank you, Imam Raza Khan has done a good job in pointing out deviancy within the Ummah, and i still have to study into his works a bit more, i feel he is free of what his followers do.

I have to point out, that i have not took the Aqeedah of labeling people mushriks as the salafiyyah organisation have done, as for tawwassul i agree with that.

Asking Allah through deeds
Supplication to Allah mentioning the virtue of the righteous
Asking those in the spiratual realm to do dua

i agree on these, however, when it comes to asking for sons, i denounce this , and asking saints like they have a power to bestow.

For that i have Allah, we ask Him to forfill needs, He is the one who bestows , the direct source.

It does not nullify our faith by refraining from asking form saints in the grave even if they be alive and well , bodys untouched, i truly believe so.

I am in agreement with Raza Khan when he points out sayings of the salafiyyah about the Prophets being wormfood and so forth its wrong.

But i really dont feel comfortable with the subcontinent practices, we dont have to take part, we still can be Muslims without doing that stuff, most of it has been passed from hindu tradtion and could lead to shirk.

If shirk is going on then its only a small minority of village people in ignorance.

i have another thread on this forum ARE MOST MUSLIMS DEVIANT MUSHRIKS? on the aqeed section, it would be worth taking note from that.

Sister i know where you are coming from, what i tend to find with brelvis is they misunderstand their own aqeedah and get twisted into thinking they have to defend something thats not even part of their aqeedah, for example some brelvis say that Muhammad was made from Allah's personal light - indicating that Muhammad is part of Allah.

It is true that Muhammad is a light from Allah, not just light in termes of guidance but he actually shined and that is all through orthodox books from the earlyest genereations and even Muhammad Ibn Adbul Wahab mentions that in his life of Muhammad .

At the end of the day i dont need Imam Raza Khan or Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab to complete my faith, i take from agreed upon Scholars like Imam Nawawi and plus i follow the Shafee madhab.

Wasalams

welcome to the forum i am happy to have you here i hope to keep hearing from you.

Wasalams

[Brother Andrew]

As-Salamu Alaykum

just to quickly add to this , because people are starting to label me a wahabi.
i denounce the aqeed of Ibn Abdul Wahab, he is a cold blooded murderer!
on top of that i denounce asking of saints in the grave for things that only Allah can bestow. however i do believe the dead can help with duas because they are (the saints) at a station before Allah where Allah is more likely to accept their dua due to their level of taqwa and saints can only help by Allahs permission, in this aspect the educated brelvis agree with me however the jahileen take issue. I do stand with the brelvis and send salam on the Prophet but i am not a brelvi, i am a Muslim and i hope to be from amongst the ahlus sunnah wal jamaah. also i give ibn Taymiyyah the benifit of the doubt because the same scholars that condemed him and imprisoned him for his slips in aqeedah did his janaza and buried him as a muslim because ibn Taymiyyah repented whilst in prison. Now who are we to say that Ibn Taymiyyahs repentance was not accepted?

[NightPhantom7]

Brother Andrew, Brother Andrew...
I am amazed...
I cannot log on to the forum somehow...How could i be a member?

[ok]

oh and for brother dawud ---- i am well aware of what you have been saying

[Ahmed]

Salamu alaikum my dearest brothers & sisters,

I completely disagree about barelvi beliefs and the person quoting the surah al ma aida verse 14 saying as our beloved prohphet MUHAMMAD SAW is a noor (light) & bashar..Let me tell you Oh muslim brothers the next verse 15 is anwsering your question if you read carefully and very nicely ALLAH AZ is refuting as NOOR.

ANY ALIM / MUFTIS / SCHOLAR / TAHIR UL KADRI / ILYAS Qdri / Mufti Akmail or any BARELVIS biggest knowledgeable person of the century may please come and meet me personally i will inshallah clear his all wrong corrupted believes made by ahmed raza khan barelvi in near million people if you come in contact with me ASAP on [e-mail]

I will not call any sheikhs like TAUSEEF UR REHMAN, DR ZAKIR NAIK, or any hardcore you say them as wahabi.

This is my oppen challenge to any barelvies like sayed irfan sha who "SHOUTS AS IF HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH" ...Oh people open your eyes and read Quran with understanding....

Jazakallah.

Allah Hafiz

Imran Ahmed
Contact [e-mail]